tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-649431201703508681.post1930174432238400242..comments2023-11-02T10:22:20.717-04:00Comments on Mike Anderson's Ancient History Blog: Development of the Spartan Political SystemMike Andersonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02072553719998549925noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-649431201703508681.post-20826881936819290892013-03-14T10:55:59.247-04:002013-03-14T10:55:59.247-04:00The article of Sparta is locked at Wikipedia.
Th...The article of Sparta is locked at Wikipedia. <br /><br />They now state on the sidebar that Sparta is a Monarchy, or Dual Monarchy!<br /><br />I guess they are afraid that the Sun will darken if Sparta is named a Republic. <br /><br />I'm wondering, if you took a poll where you teach, or the professional associations that you are enrolled with, if you asked your fellow associates, "What form of government did Sparta have?"--what would be the answer?<br /><br />Is there such a thing as "political science"? For science requires an accuracy of terms, does it not?W.LindsayWheelerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06236577164127792348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-649431201703508681.post-91284916129909746712013-02-27T15:15:28.848-05:002013-02-27T15:15:28.848-05:00Language is everything. Semantics is important.
P...Language is everything. Semantics is important.<br /><br />Paul A. Rahe in his book on republics singles out a very telling statement from Machiavelli. I produce it here in full:<br /><br /><i><b>"He who desires or wishes to reform the condition of a city and wishes that it be accepted and that it be able to maintain itself to everyone's satisfaction is forced to retain at least the shadow of ancient modes so that it might seem to the people that order has not changed—though, in fact, the new orders are completely alien to those of the past. For the universality of men feed as much on appearance as on reality: indeed, in many cases, they are moved more by the things which seem than by those which are....And this much should be observed by all who wish to eliminate an ancient way of life (un antico vivere) in a city and reduce it to a new and free way of life (ridurla a uno vivere nuovo e libero): one ought, since new things alter the minds of men, to see to it that these alterations retain as much as the ancient as possible; and if the magistrates change from those of old in number, authority, and term of office, they ought at least retain the name.</b></i><br /><br />This is called "Revolution within the form" where Machiavelli approves and disseminates the methodology of keeping a name but changing the definition underneath it in order to bring about revolution. Certainly, it is a crime to say "a republic is any government without a king" when originally that was not the case at all and Aristotle would not approve. One is giving false assumptions to something that is not there--thus deceiving somebody.<br /><br />Second, I'm a Doric Cretan. The Spartans are my cousins, we are all Dorians. Shall my patrimony of my forebearers be stolen from my people. Because certain people are denying the honor of "republic" to Sparta. My people created this. Why should I allow revolutionaries and subversives, people of evil intent, take something that was once beautiful and good and deny them the honor and glory. <br /><br />Glory is very much Dorian.<br /><br />In the light of Machiavelli and knowing the use and abuse of language by progressives, communists and socialists, shouldn't semantics be very very important?<br /><br />The British "republicans" really are clueless aren't they? Should wrong ideas and labels be used?<br /><br />And then how does one square the circle when John Aylmer sees the parallel between his Tudor style government and Sparta and you have Sir Thomas Symth write a book calling his Tudor government a Republic and then Cromwell and his Puritans create a "commonwealth" or republic under the influence of rabbis (q.v. Eric Nelson's <i>The Hebrew Republic</i>). Cromwell and the Puritans operated under the influence of "a republic is any government without a king". <br /><br />How does one confront the illogicalness of opposite things, Cromwell and Tudor governments, both appearing under the term Republic? I mean that is why the British "republicans" ran me off Wikipedia because of the contradiction! How do you handle the contradictions in political science? How do you teach history that has NO consistency? If you give people the modern definition, "a republic is any government without a king"---how are modern people going to understand classical antiquity? Is there not glaring inconsistencies? Illogical? What happened to Paramenides principle of Non-contradiction? Is that not central to European thought?<br /><br />Yes, semantics is everything. W.LindsayWheelerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06236577164127792348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-649431201703508681.post-47752066670428336812013-02-26T21:44:10.940-05:002013-02-26T21:44:10.940-05:00W. Lindsay Wheeler,
I think you're too worrie...W. Lindsay Wheeler,<br /><br />I think you're too worried about semantics.<br /><br />Rome was certainly an oligarchy because it was ruled by a few (the Senate). It was also a Republic in the classic sense. Republic comes from res publica or "thing of the people" which means that the people have a say in government - through the assembly. Prior to this time, all governments were monarchies or aristocracies, as in early Sparta. <br /><br />There is some information we have that Rome, under the kings, had a Senate and Assembly. It is said that King Servius Tullius created the Commitia Centuriata and the Comitia Tributa, although only the latter really represented the people. What's important to me is that this political system was a departure from the previous ones because of the new role of the people. So the presence of a king did not negate the definition. Should Rome be called a Republic before the kings fell? It's debatable, although I have no problems calling Sparta a Republic, even though it had a monarch.Mike Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02072553719998549925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-649431201703508681.post-39968026696594834792013-02-26T18:50:13.942-05:002013-02-26T18:50:13.942-05:00FYI, in the article "Sparta" at Wikipedi...FYI, in the article "Sparta" at Wikipedia, in the section on its government, they quote my line about how it is mixed. It is from one of my works on republic. The article states categorically that it is "mixed government" yet in the sidebar on the classification of the form of government, it has "Oligarchy". My complaint has been on the talk page one week now. No one has said "boo". <br /><br />If you look up many modern dictionaries they do define a "republic" as "Any government without a king". Can you believe that that exact phrase is in Lorenzo Valla's writing on the Donation of Constantine!<br /><br />Yet I read Cicero's <i>De republica</i> and in there he specifically states that the Roman Republic started under Romulus with the appearance of the Senate. I found this before 2008. <br /><br />Paul A. Rahe, the author of the three volume set, <i>Republics, Ancient and Modern</i>, wrote a second book called <i>Against Throne and Altar;</i> where in one line states that three Roman writers, Cicero, Livy, Sallust, all state that the Roman Republic was started under Romulus the king. On page 28.<br /><br />So what happened to "A republic is any government without a king"?<br /><br />I first posted on a Republic and that Sparta was a republic on 18 Feb 2004. It was in Apr 2005, that I read Cicero's <i>De republica</i> and said Sparta was a republic and that is when Wikipedia deleted my <a href="http://www.wikinfo.org/Multilingual/index.php/Classical_definition_of_republic" rel="nofollow">Classical definition of a republic</a> from Wikipedia. <br /><br />Here is the reference for <i>De republica</i> 103."It was after he had adopted this policy that Romulus first discovered and approved the principle which Lycurgus had discovered at Sparta a short time before—that a State can be better governed and guided by the authority of one man, that is by the power of the king, if the influence of the State's most eminent men is joined to the ruler's absolute power." De re publica, Loeb. Vol #213, pg 123-125<br />.<br /><br />It was in April 2005 that I found out that Cicero had the republic started under Romulus way before Paul Rahe. I present facts at Wikipedia and they still deleted the article. No one there will accept that Sparta is a Republic. All the ancient republics in the West, Doric Crete, Sparta, and Rome all started under kings. The definition "a republic is any government without a king" is Jewish out of the Hebraic politics then circling in Northern Italy and it England. Somebody has their facts wrong but then again, we live in an age where one can make up what one likes.W.LindsayWheelerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06236577164127792348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-649431201703508681.post-76434709389966320092013-02-21T21:58:58.844-05:002013-02-21T21:58:58.844-05:00W.Lindsay Wheeler,
You can't call Rome a Repu...W.Lindsay Wheeler,<br /><br />You can't call Rome a Republic without calling Sparta a Republic. Both had a Council of Elders (Senate/Gerousia, Assembly (Commitia/Ecclesia),and Chief Magistrates (Consuls/Ephors). The kings of Sparta were an anachronism. As I'm sure you realize, Democracies were much rarer in history than Republics. A Democracy is a hard thing to do and Athens only pulled it off because it was so small.Mike Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02072553719998549925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-649431201703508681.post-38558128518132773592013-02-21T10:16:55.456-05:002013-02-21T10:16:55.456-05:00I was run off from Wikipedia by the British (moder...I was run off from Wikipedia by the British (modern) republicans because I labelled Sparta a republic. To them, because Sparta had kings, prevented Sparta from being a republic. I then posted on Paul A. Rahe calling Sparta a republic and they dismissed him as a loner and not in union with the majority. <br /><br />I am glad that you also recognize that Sparta is a republic--a true republic. It seems though that you dismiss the connection between Rome and Sparta but there is more instances of a connection such as the military headgear worn by both. Officer headgear is the same along with the red capes. The connection between the two, for me, is the Sabines. The Sabines, as Plutarch says, claimed that they were Dorians. Furthermore, there were sumptuary laws in both Sparta and Rome albeit in Rome only the senate had sumptuary laws laid against them. If they would have kept to the sumptuary laws, maybe the Republic would have never descended into ochlocracy due to the Gracchi rebellions. <br /><br />I'm the author of <a href="http://www.sparta.markoulakispublications.org.uk/index.php?id=105" rel="nofollow">The Spartan Republic</a>.<br /><br />One can not dismiss either that the same concept "Old Men" in the Spartan gerousia is the same in the Latin "Senatus". Coincidences don't happen. There are just too many coincidences between Rome and Sparta. <br /><br />I'm just glad that there is another academic now that recognizes that Sparta is a true republic.W.LindsayWheelerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06236577164127792348noreply@blogger.com